From Hybrid Casual, AI-Native Teams,and the New Role of UA

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In this episode, Amit sits down with Nimrod Klinger, VP of Marketing at CrazyLabs. Nimrod has spent almost his entire career at the company, starting as its only UA manager, working alongside one video editor and one graphic designer, back when it made games for kids and released a new one every week.

The business has changed several times since then, from kids' games to hyper-casual, then hybrid casual, and now AI is changing how his marketing team of 35 people works. At CrazyLabs today, UA managers make their own creatives, help shape product decisions and own the marketing strategy of their games, and according to Nimrod, half of the team's creative wins at the time of recording came from UA managers themselves.

The conversation gets into the details: what broke in the hyper-casual business model, how creative handoffs slow a team down, the presentations that made AI adoption a requirement, and the decisions Nimrod still wants people to make themselves.

A New Game Every Week
When Nimrod joined, the company was making games for kids and releasing a new title every week. The marketing routine followed that pace: prepare a short burst campaign, reach the charts, get what they could from the launch, then move to the next game.

Around 2018, the team saw an opportunity in hyper-casual. They already knew how to produce games quickly, and the growing demand gave them room to expand. Nimrod recalls the marketing team growing from five people to 30 in roughly six months.

During the hyper-casual boom, he says the company was launching one or two games a month. Campaign management was much more manual, with bids adjusted by country and site, and when automation arrived, UA managers were nervous about what would be left of their jobs. They found plenty to do once the bid changes were taken off their hands.

Every couple of years since, the job has changed underneath him.

"Those last 10 years of the company, it feels like I already changed like three, four jobs at the same time."

What Hybrid Casual Demanded
Nimrod describes hyper-casual as an economic model built around broad appeal, low acquisition costs and fast monetization. Players could leave within days, so the cohort needed to pay back quickly, and cheap prototypes with a large testing pipeline kept the model running.

Rising CPIs and changing player expectations put pressure on it. Players wanted more progression and polish, while acquisition became harder. Nimrod says CrazyLabs spent another year trying to make the old approach work before fully accepting that the company needed to evolve.

That meant learning how to build progression and in-app purchases while competing for paying users with established casual publishers. The creative standard changed too.

"Quality was not part of the equation. Just shoot stuff out there and see what sticks."

The team now needed quality at scale, and the slower release cycle was a difficult adjustment. A company used to monthly launches could spend a year working on a game without getting a successful release out of it. Nimrod talks openly about the effect on motivation, alongside the satisfaction when the work finally moves the needle, and he calls this the most interesting year he has had so far.

The Simple Game Still Has a Place
Nimrod draws a line between the old economics and the appeal of simple games. He believes the high-volume hyper-casual publishing model is difficult to justify today, while the design philosophy behind it, one or two mechanics, no tutorial, few screens, still gives hybrid-casual games their entry point.

"The front door is the same."

His own portfolio also complicates the idea that every hyper-casual game has a short life. At the time of recording, one of CrazyLabs' three most profitable games was a hyper-casual title from 2019, and he credits continued work on lifetime value, creative strategy, UA and live ops with keeping it there.

Fewer Handoffs Between Idea and Ad
At the time of the conversation, the creative organization worked in squads, with a creative strategist owning three or four games alongside motion designers, graphic designers, Unity developers and a playable producer.

Nimrod walks through the path an idea could take: a designer creates a character, a Unity developer adds it to the marketing build, a motion designer works on the video, then the asset moves through review and eventually reaches UA, and a quality problem sends it back through the cycle.

"I don't see why all of this cycle can be one person doing all of that."

He wants people to be orchestrators, able to carry an idea through several of those stages themselves. A UA manager who sees static ads working should be able to create the banners, and one who needs an automation should be able to connect to the API and build it without waiting on R&D. He is careful about the timeline, since the structure is still being worked out and the tools keep changing what is possible. For his team, he says, the release of the Seedance video model was the moment everything changed, because it could finally handle gameplay.

The VP Has to Build Things Too
Nimrod makes time to use AI himself, despite having no technical or design background, and some meetings now go on without him.

"I'm at a meeting with Claude at the moment."

Doing the work changes the conversations he can have with his team. He can understand their challenges, question an assumption or suggest an approach because he has used the tools himself, and it gives him something concrete to point to when asking experienced colleagues to change habits they have built over years.

"I don't wanna just preach. I wanna practice what I preach."

His own example is a short drama video. He says his first attempt was terrible, his second was amazing, and he made it in half a day, compared with the weeks or months a marketing team might previously have needed for that kind of production.

When AI Adoption Became Mandatory
The team's first reaction included fear that AI would replace them.

"In reality, we didn't fire anyone because AI replaced them."

He is also clear that failing to embrace AI could be the reason someone left, and that once people realized AI was not taking their jobs, they started treating it as another tool in the toolbox. Every person on the team had a moment with it, he says, and once you have that moment, you can never go back.

For about a year and a half, the team had access to the tools and encouragement to experiment. Then Nimrod raised the expectation, and all 35 people on the marketing team had to present their AI progress from the previous three months to him and the COO, with roughly four weeks' notice.

"People that didn't touch AI four weeks ago came to this presentation with automation tools that they built for creative production."

Others brought market research tools connected to different sources. Convincing, he says, is no longer the issue.

"Everyone in this team should be AI native."

New hires will need that capability as a prerequisite, because he does not want to repeat the persuasion process with every new person.

Judgment Still Needs an Owner
Asked where he would avoid relying on AI, Nimrod points to the judgment call: which concepts deserve a test, which outputs are usable, and which direction the creative strategy should take.

"You don't really wanna test 200 videos every day. Most of it will look bad."

Producing more creates another responsibility, deciding what is worth spending money on. He does not believe in a fully automated marketing team, since automation can hold a flat line while growth week over week comes from people with taste using the tools well.

"The people are the ones that are helping us grow, not the AI."

He also acknowledges that the answer could change between the recording and the release.

UA 2.0: The CMO of the Game
CrazyLabs had already defined the expanded UA role internally, and Nimrod likens it to being the CMO of a game, with responsibility stretching across creative strategy, store assets, analytics and the product discussions that affect growth.

His example is a game in development where the UA owner sat in the product meeting and argued for interstitial ads.

"Without interstitials, this game is not gonna scale."

The interstitials went in. The role also covers the store strategy, how many icons and screenshots to test, and telling the creative team what kind of assets the game needs. Responsibility follows that ownership.

"If the creative strategy is not working, we don't blame the creative team for them. We blame the UA for that because they're the owners."

Nimrod says the shift, made roughly six months before the recording, made people more involved with the games they manage, and they began producing creatives themselves.

"If you look at the amount of creative wins that we have currently in the team, fifty percent of them are made by UA managers."

Wrap Up
The thread through the whole conversation is that Nimrod keeps moving responsibility closer to the people doing the work. The squad handoffs he wants to shorten, the presentations that turned AI from an invitation into an expectation, and the UA manager who now answers for the creative, the store and the product calls around a game all come from the same instinct.

He applies it to himself first. A VP who skips meetings to build with Claude and makes his own short drama video has earned the right to ask a veteran motion designer to learn a new way of working.

What he keeps for people is judgment, deciding what deserves a test when a machine can produce far more than anyone should run, and which direction a game's marketing should take next.

Amit's closing read is that the best people today can talk strategy and the most tactical detail in the same conversation, and Nimrod's answer was short.

"This is the time to be hands-on."

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The Full Transcript:

Amit: Nimrod, great to have you here. so Nimrod, great to have you here. welcome to the podcast. It's great to host you.

Nimrod: Thanks for inviting me.

Amit: Yes. eh, so for everyone who, who doesn't know and Nimrod will present himself but Nimrod is currently VP marketing at CrazyLabs worked at Optica and you grew from the bottom at CrazyLabs I saw. From a UA manager, senior UA manager, and then you grew up to VP marketing and managing the entire operation there. eh, tell us about yourself.

Nimrod: Yeah, okay, so, eh, like I, I think almost my entire career was at, eh, CrazyLabs. We used to be called TabTale back then. eh, I started as the-

Amit: Why they changed the name?

Nimrod: Because we changed everything.

Amit: Because of that?

Nimrod: Back then, we used to do completely different things, and then we pivoted and we thought it would be the right, eh, the right time also to pick a different branding with a different name to kind of start fresh. So, so I, I started as like the ju-junior UA, the only UA at the company.

Amit: Oh my god.

Nimrod: The other people in my, the marketing team was one video editor and one graphic designer, and we were like doing, you know, UA and, eh, and, eh, with, with what we had. eh, and back then it was much more simple, like as, as TabTale we used to do, eh... Games for kids, uh, back then, and we used to release a new game every week.

Amit: Wow.

Nimrod: So every week, we would need to prep for a very short campaign, like a burst, reaching the top charts, getting as much as we can out of it. Another week passed, and then we have a new game, and that was like the, the routine. Uh, and then around 2018, something like that, we started noticing something happening around, uh... It wasn't the name yet, but hyper-casual, and, uh, and we saw some stuff from Ketchapp, and Voodoo started, uh, doing stuff, and we thought, "Okay, it's, it's, uh, it's in our DNA. We know how to shoot games really fast." And so it started... Like we started growing with, with that. Um, and when we needed to grow, I was lucky to be at the right, uh, the right time there and, uh, and to, like, found my own marketing team. We started as five people, and let's say six months later, we were already 30 people-

Amit: Wow

Nimrod: ... uh, in the marketing team-

Amit: Wow

Nimrod: ... because we suddenly started releasing more and more games, and, uh, with more games, you need more UA managers, you need more video editors, you need more and more and more and more people to do the, the marketing operations. Um, and it was a crazy time. Um, and ever since, we're, like every couple of years, we evolved. So we'll probably talk about it later. But, uh, a few years ago, we shifted from hyper-casual to hybrid casual. Now we're evolving towards like, not around the games, but around the marketing with AI. So th- those last 10 years of the company, it feels like I already changed like three, four jobs at the same time. Uh, it doesn't feel like I'm, you know, stuck in the same place doing the same thing. Like we-- I, yeah, I started four different jobs, uh-

Amit: Right. Amazing

Nimrod: ... during this time.

Amit: At the peak at, uh, of, uh, CrazyLabs, when you said that you grew up from, uh, five to six to 30 very, very fast-

Nimrod: Yeah

Amit: ... how many live games, uh, did you manage, if you remember, like at the same time?

Nimrod: It was a period that we used to launch a new game ev- or like one or two games every month. Um, uh, it was also COVID, so there was a high demand for those kind of games. Like everything was easy. It was before ATT, before, like when life was simp- were simple. Uh, and there was high demand for those games, and we found our niche. Um, and, and yeah, and like every month, one or two new games, and you couldn't keep up with the pace. Like you-

Amit: Oh, okay

Nimrod: ... you needed firepower. You needed people, you know, managing these kind of things. Uh, UA was very manual back then. So, so we also needed to build infrastructure to deal with those amounts of, you know, daily operations around, uh, even the media buying part, which was-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Nimrod: ... it wasn't like it is today. It was bids per country, per site. Like you needed to do it, uh, almost on a daily basis or twice a week, or...

Amit: By this time on, uh, campaign management, did you try to do some automation even back then?

Nimrod: Yeah. Yeah.

Amit: Okay.

Nimrod: So build automation on, on the bids part.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Nimrod: Um, it was funny 'cause, 'cause we as UA manager thought, "Okay, they're taking away our job."

Amit: Yeah. Which now is nothing.

Nimrod: "Automation, automation will take away our job. Uh, what will we do?" Uh, and yeah, we all survived. We all found what to do without, you know, changing manually bids, uh, on a daily basis. Uh, but yeah, it was the first-

Amit: Yeah. We'll speak about it in the end. It's actually super interesting how the UA role has evolved. Eh, but let's speak about when life is a bit hard, uh, which is today. Uh, and like you said, a few years ago, you changed the strategy from pure hyper-casual to more hybrid casual. If you can explain to us, I, I think everyone kind of understand the high level of, uh, changing of that, but practically how it looks like, this change, how the... How you change your, your mindset first, the team, how you view games, how you view marketing, and let's, uh-

Nimrod: Yeah

Amit: ... take a tour there.

Nimrod: Yeah. So hyper-casual, first thing about it, it's just, it's, it's an economic model. Okay? So you're relying on mass appeal, very high marketability, which translate into low CPIs. Monetization kicks in almost immediately. The trade-off is that you're showing ads of other games to your players, and then by day one, day two, day three, those players, players are already gone. So you need to monetize them as quickly as possible, as aggressively as possible, um, uh, 'cause you know you're, they're not gonna stay with you. The- there's zero loyalty to those games.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Nimrod: Of course, there are some exceptions, but, uh, but, uh, um, let's say in, in the business model, by day seven max, you should be already breaking even-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Nimrod: ... uh, for your cohort. So, uh, it allowed itself, as long as CPIs were low, as long as there was demand for, for, for those kind of games, and then, um, also prototyping and, and building those games took weeks. It was very cheap. We used to work with a lot of, uh, studios as a publisher and, uh, and, uh, we literally tested hundreds of new games every month. Uh, and from that funnel, you end up with one or two releases every month, and then it works. Uh, that economic model started to break when, uh, a few things happened. Uh, on one side, ATT, CPI, uh, CPIs increased, um, things became harder on the, on the UA side. Uh, at the same time, uh, players' taste changed a little bit, uh, so they were not really, uh, keen to continue playing those, uh, very simple games.

Amit: Really? Oh.

Nimrod: They, they wanted something a little bit more, uh, polished, something a little bit more, uh, uh, adventurous, uh, to, to, to stick with it for a little bit longer, and those hyper-casual games didn't give them a reason to-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Nimrod: ... to, to stay longer. Uh, so, so something broke in that model. Uh- And then, you know, it, we weren't the first one to notice it. Uh, we actually, in my opinion, uh, uh, realized it a little bit, uh, late. Uh, Voodoo were the, probably the ones who officially stated that hyper-casual is dead. I don't know about that, but, but, uh, uh, they, they were, let's say, the market leaders in, in telling everyone, "Stop doing what you're doing. It doesn't work anymore," and, and move on-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Nimrod: ... to the next, uh, to the next thing. It took us, I think, another year of trying to, to survive the hyper-casual era, uh, until we finally realized this is not going anywhere and we need to evolve ourself. And then as a company that used to do things in a certain way, you need to reinvent yourself. Um, you need to learn how to build progression for games, how to monetize within purchases, um, creatives. We used to do a lot of idiotic creatives for kids that, uh, did, like, quality didn't matter back then. It just, uh, was about speed, uh, volume, uh, being a little bit funny, being a little bit disgusting, and, uh, perfection was not part of the-

Amit: Yeah.

Nimrod: ... equation. Quality was not part of the equation. Just, just shoot stuff out there and see what, what sticks. And, uh, and, uh, suddenly we started competing with the big casual publishers. So we're bidding against, uh, King and against Dream and against, uh, all those other, uh, casual, uh, monsters that we want the same players, we want the same paying users. So suddenly we needed to also on the marketing side to kind of step up our game, uh, in terms of quality. Um, and then we, we shifted towards quality and, and quantity was a problem again. Um, but also at the company level, we needed to learn how to build games. Um, so we had great talents from the inside that had no idea how to do that. Uh, so it's a, it's a curve. You learn, you learn, you bring some knowledgeable people from the industry. You, you slowly do things, uh, fail a lot, uh, have some small wins, some big wins, and-

Amit: Yeah, the wins last longer, I think this is, uh, what is a good-

Nimrod: The wins when they're there, they're, like, amazing.

Amit: Yeah. So, yeah.

Nimrod: Uh, when you see them, it's like a wow moment when, wow, we actually moved the needle. Um-

Amit: What is more fun to you, the hybrid or a hyper? For you personally as a marketeer.

Nimrod: Um, it's different because now on the hybrid you would launch a very successful game, if you're lucky, once or twice a year, if you're, if you're lucky. It can be a year with nothing.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Nimrod: And we had years with nothing. And, and it's depressing. Uh, you're fighting the pipeline, uh, of prototypes that just don't convert to anything, and it's, uh, it's hard to keep high motivation in a company that used to work on, on speeds. Like you, you really needed to, you know, to deliver every month, and now, okay, we have a year to, to work on a game, and maybe it will be great, maybe it will fail, and, and the, the, the pace changed, uh, significantly. Uh, but I think that now it's a little bit more interesting, especially with AI involved. Um, I think this is the m- most interesting year I had, uh, so far.

Amit: Really?

Nimrod: Yeah.

Amit: Wow. Amazing.

Nimrod: Yeah.

Amit: Love to... I love it. Let's speak a bit about hyper-casual is dead phra- uh, uh, phrase. Uh, do you think that it's today still dead? For a few years, I don't think a lot of company have been doing a lot in this space, let's say. But I'm always asking myself, uh, if there is any opportunity there today, like in hyper-casual.

Nimrod: Yeah. So I'll say that, like, the economic model of hyper-casual is no longer viable today.

Amit: Hmm.

Nimrod: Uh, maybe, maybe, you know, someone can release a very successful hyper-casual today, uh, but, but in order to have that, you need a huge operation, uh, of testing and, and-

Amit: Mm

Nimrod: ... like the, the business model even, you know, how much it costs you internally to release that game with all the tests that you did along the way, it's just not worth it. If something changes in the future, uh, around the economic model, um, I can see it coming back because I believe that those things come in waves. I mean, the hyper-casual era, it wasn't the first one. If you remember a few years before, we had games like, uh, Fruit Ninja and Flappy Bird and Angry Birds and even Snake. Uh, those were the first hyper-casual games. Uh, people loved simplicity. They loved things that are very, uh, like, uh, easy to, to master. Um, you didn't need any expertise. Uh, everyone played Snake, uh-

Amit: Yeah

Nimrod: ... when we were kids. Everyone played Fr- Fruit Ninja when it was, uh, when it was there, so the mass appeal was there. And, uh, and, uh, uh, then after some time, people needed a little bit more complication to life. They need... They, they wanted to enjoy more from their games, to see them progress and play for months or years and, and that thing changed, and then it changed again back to hyper-casual. Now it's going out. So it's like a, it's like a wave that, uh, I believe, uh, will lend itself soon on... I don't know if hyper-casual is, uh, in the way it is today, but, but, uh, like it was, but, but, you know, uh, simplicity will come back. Having said that, hyper-casual is also a design philosophy. So, so when you're building something that is, uh, um, easy to use with a very simple core mechanic, maybe one or two mechanics in the game, like no tutorial, uh, no- A lot of screens and, uh, and menus and everything. I think that we're still there. Uh, so the philosophy still exists in, in hybrid casual. The front door is the same, it's just the house that, uh, behind it that changed. Uh, so until today, the hyper-casual design philosophy still exists. We're still following that. If you look at the games that we published, like, I don't know, Sled Surfers or, or some others, they could have been a great hyper-casual, uh, games, uh-

Amit: Yeah

Nimrod: ... five years ago.

Amit: Oh, Sled Surfer is one of the best.

Nimrod: Yeah.

Amit: Everyone enjoyed to play.

Nimrod: Yeah. But, but it's so simple, but if we kept it as a hyper-casual game, it would never be as successful as it is today. We needed to work a lot on making it more fun, more like to work on the retention to make, uh, people want to pay money on it. So, so the, the still work in progress but, um, but we needed to fix the economic model for it to work. But again, the front door is almost identical to what it used to be.

Amit: If the lifetime, from your experience, like the lifetime of a hyper-casual, you know, it can be few days, few weeks, or I don't know, a month. For hybrid, for a successful game, let's say you find a su- found a successful game, specifically for CrazyLabs, I know other examples, uh, but for how long the game last, like in this, uh, scale in a good way?

Nimrod: What do you mean last?

Amit: Like let's go-

Nimrod: Profitable?

Amit: ... with Sled Surfer. Yeah. No, Sled Surfer, let's take it for this example. I don't know for how long it's like up post-soft launch.

Nimrod: Mm-hmm.

Amit: Like I wonder what is the lifetime, like the real lifetime when the game is like good, monetizing well according to the KPIs that you, uh, define, for how long a game like that will last?

Nimrod: Um-

Amit: Like you can't really know, but you have caught-

Nimrod: You can't really know

Amit: ... other examples that-

Nimrod: But I can give you an example from the hyper-casual, uh, portfolio that we still have and maintaining. Uh, in our top three games at the moment, in terms of profitability, we have a game from 2019.

Amit: Oh my God.

Nimrod: A hyper-casual game from 2019. So those games, yes, they peak really, really fast. Uh, they, uh, they decline.

Amit: 12 months relating.

Nimrod: But then when you are able to keep stability and to keep, you know, improving the LTV year over year and, uh, like being consistent with the creative strategy and trying and testing and doing the UA properly, uh, and live ops, um, even hyper-casual games can sustain years of longevity and profitability.

Amit: Quite amazing.

Nimrod: So I don't see a reason why the hybrid casual-

Amit: Yeah

Nimrod: ... games will not.

Amit: Okay. So let's move to another topic, which is, uh, pretty interesting because I don't think we have a lot of marketing leaders in the industry that manage a lot of people like you. Like you said, you manage a, a bit over, uh, 30 people, 35. Uh-

Nimrod: Yeah

Amit: ... you know, I know a lot of CMOs and VP of marketing that usually it can be between the five to, you know, you have some that are managing hundreds, uh, you know, the big ones.

Nimrod: Yeah.

Amit: But the Chinese studios, it's like insane. It's like can be 500, 400 because of the creatives operation. Uh, how a day-to-day when you have so many people, so many games, uh, and so many different also roles, like you have the creatives, you have the, you have the designers, you have the creative strategy, you have the UA managers, you have, you know, a lot of stuff.

Nimrod: Yeah. So-

Amit: Yeah. You have a lot of stuff. What is your really day-to-day job?

Nimrod: Um, I, I'm, you know, I'm a believer that, uh, people in the team should have ownership. So I don't believe in micromanaging and going into the details of every little thing. And to be honest, like we have tens of games that we're actively managing UA for, so I can't be in the details of everything. So we teach people how to become owners, uh, of their domain and to have the freedom to, uh, to make their own decisions. Um, and I'm there in the intersections when there is a critical, um, critical, uh, uh, question that needs a, needs an answer. Um-

Amit: What can be a critical question, for example?

Nimrod: Look, to-today, the, the, the UA managers, they're not just media buyers. So, so they're dealing with all departments in the, in the company. So, uh, there is a lot of conversations, for example, between UA and the game owner or the, the product owner.

Amit: Product.

Nimrod: So, um, uh, whether we should do, let's say, segmentation, um, so segmentation for UA purposes. So whether we introduce interstitial to a game without interstitials, just so we can run ROAS campaigns with the IAA, uh, optimization. So, so those, those are like big things, big decisions that, uh, I tend to, to take part in. Uh, the day-to-day, obviously, uh, there are too many details that I can, that I can take care of. But at the rest of the time, um, like we're... I think the, the big focus today and like the biggest challenge is not the UA itself, it's the, it's the creatives. Uh, and that's where I'm putting most of the, most of my time now to just become more better and better at, at making creatives. We talked about quantity and quality and the trade-offs between them, so now we understand that we need both quality and quantity.

Amit: And diversity also.

Nimrod: And diversity. And, uh, with the same people that used to do hyper-casual, uh, three years ago, that, you know, we taught them completely different things three years ago, and now we expect completely other things. Um, so, so there's a big change that we're going through still, uh, and the like standards and, and quality that we don't wanna compromise on. And it's, uh, it's, uh, uh, together with AI, we're just building infrastructures to, to allow that. Uh, so that's where most of my time going at the moment to, to make sure that, uh, that we're building it right. Um, and I also- Keep time and, and make myself available to do a lot of things with AI myself because I don't wanna just, uh, uh, preach. I wanna practice what I preach, and I want to be able to-

Amit: Yeah, I think, you know, it's, it's impossible to preach without really, you know, doing the, the core work of it.

Nimrod: Yeah. Yeah. So-

Amit: I saw it too many times of people from above, let's say, saying, "Use AI," like I hear it all of the time-

Nimrod: Yeah

Amit: ... with other founders. "We are AI native. Use AI. We-- It's fucking bullshit"

Nimrod: So how, how could I expect someone to be an AI-

Amit: Yeah

Nimrod: ... AI native-

Amit: If you're not. Yeah

Nimrod: ... if I never opened Claude, if I never made a, a video with, uh, with any of the video models-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Nimrod: ... if I didn't, uh, build anything? Uh, so, so I, I really believe that, you know, you need to lead by example, and if you don't do it yourself, why would others follow you? So I, I stopped showing up to some meetings, and I- ... and I, I-- Really, I, I-

Amit: Someone at, uh, Jonathan Fishman, if he hears me, he did it as well. Just put his calendar, "Don't book meetings," and that's it.

Nimrod: No, I still have-

Amit: For like three days-

Nimrod: ... those meetings. I just don't show up-

Amit: He just--

Nimrod: ... because, because I'm-

Amit: It's even worse

Nimrod: ... I'm, I'm at a meeting with Claude at the moment. So I'm, I'm, I'm really making time for that. So, uh, and, and I think it's just, you know, okay, so I'm, I'm maybe doing something that is not, uh, managerial at the moment, but I think it's contributing 'cause then when I have the conversation with the team about expectations, about what needs to be done, about their challenges, I feel like I can do an intellectual conversation with them. I, I might even have good answers for them, a new perspective, and I'm not coming from a technological background whatsoever. I don't know anything about code. I don't know anything about design. I don't know anything about anything. I, I know how to optimize campaigns, and also that I didn't do for the last five, six years- ... myself. So hands-on experience, I don't think I, I did anything hands-on in the last few years, and this is the first time I'm kind of starting to, to, to work with my hands and to, to build things again. Um, and it's a lot of fun. So-

Amit: It's so much fun.

Nimrod: So-

Amit: It's the best game ever to-

Nimrod: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

Amit: ... to be honest. It's the best game ever.

Nimrod: Yeah. Yeah. So it doesn't really matter, you know, how many people I manage because it-- uh, at the end of the day, I manage managers that manage their teams, so it's not like I'm directly managing 30 or 40 people. Um, it just-- You need to make sure that the philosophy and, uh, and, uh, what you want to achieve will happen. It doesn't matter if it's with five people or with 40 people. Um, obviously, with more people, more challenges and more, uh, uh, differences between them, but, but, uh, it doesn't really matter. I th- I, I also think we don't have enough people. Uh, it's not, uh... Like we have a very big portfolio of games that needs management, and sometimes we just, uh, s-say that we're not doing things just because we don't have enough people to do those things. Uh, so, so there's... And hyper-casual and hybrid casual, those are beasts that just you need, need to keep feeding. So while we're speaking, there are three games in the making that might launch in the next-

Amit: Wow

Nimrod: ... uh, couple of, uh, months. So, so we're still feeding the beast, and, uh, and, uh, we need every, every working hands. And, and, uh, yeah, it's-- Uh, every day there's a new challenge, but the AI challenge, I think it's the one that is really keeping me-

Amit: Yeah, yeah

Nimrod: ... alive now.

Amit: Yeah. So we'll speak about AI in a second. In general, just a, like a quick question, do you think that the role of the marketing leader today in mobile games is becoming more creative-oriented than builder-oriented than, you know, UA-oriented than, you know, uh, leadership, managerial, strategy-oriented?

Nimrod: I-

Amit: If you look at the world like in a, in a year from now, also as a, like a marketing leader, think about-- I don't know how a structure of a marketing department will look like, to be honest. Will it be squa-- I don't know. It's too many options but, yeah.

Nimrod: So o-o-our structure at the moment is that we basically have squads with the creative strategist and, uh, that owns like, uh, three or four games, and, uh-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Nimrod: ... with him, we have motion designers, graphic designers-

Amit: Yeah

Nimrod: ... Unity developers, blah, blah, blah, uh, Playable producer, et cetera. Um, and everyone is specializing in, in their own thing. Um, this structure is not gonna last forever. And, uh, this is something that I'm also telling the people. It's not a secret. They're not gonna hear it for the first time here. Uh, this structure is not gonna last forever because let's say even today when someone, the creative strategist have an idea for a video, he needs a designer to create the character, then to send it to a Unity developer to implement it in the-

Amit: Yeah

Nimrod: ... in the marketing build, and then a motion designer see it, uh, works on it. If the quality is not good enough, w-we go back to the cycle, then reviewing, then go to UA, and, um, I don't see why all of this cycle can be one person doing all of that. Uh, so, so those old models of hierarchies, um, they won't make sense anymore. Like specialization in one thing won't make sense anymore. Um, we really believe that everyone should be able to do everything. They might not be the specialists of that thing. Like if you're a motion designer, you don't need to be a specialist in, uh, in, uh, I don't know, in sound.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Nimrod: And, uh, if you're a UA manager, you don't need to be a specialist in, uh, in graphic design. But each one should know how to do everything.

Amit: Yeah.

Nimrod: And then, and then, um, and, and then it just brings better things to the table, different ideas. And in terms of the, the, the team itself, we're still shaping it. Uh, I don't know how it will look like six months from now. Um- ... still like a work in progress. We like, uh, you know yourself, AI is changing what we think on almost on a daily basis. Like you-

Amit: Totally

Nimrod: ... one day you think that something is not possible, and then the next day it is possible.

Amit: And then you have the Fable of, uh-

Nimrod: Fable, yeah.

Amit: It's insane. You know how much it costs them for one? No, it's insane. It's really insane.

Nimrod: Yeah, but-

Amit: But yeah, it's the, the first... Never mind. It's, yeah, it's way better in a lot of different stuff.

Nimrod: Like, uh-

Amit: Like way better

Nimrod: ... for us, like the fable of the creatives was actually Seedance.

Amit: That's true.

Nimrod: So, so when Seedance-

Amit: Ah, for the video model.

Nimrod: Yeah.

Amit: Yeah, of the-

Nimrod: For us, when Seedance, the video model came out-

Amit: It's amazing, huh? Amazing

Nimrod: ... that was the big bang, uh-

Amit: What do you use it mostly for, like gameplays or mostly UGCs and stuff like that?

Nimrod: Everything.

Amit: Or narrative?

Nimrod: Everything. We build full ads with it, uh, gameplay iterations, UGCs-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Nimrod: ... hooks, uh, you name it. You name it. Uh, and no other model before that could handle-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Nimrod: ... gameplay, and now it does. So it just brings much more flexibility and much more freedom to everyone to do really whatever they want and, uh, for us, like the... Everything changed after Seedance came out and the Seedance 2.0. Um, and then we had to kind of rethink again about the structure and-

Amit: Yeah

Nimrod: ... how it works and who does what. Uh, the roles are changing, the structures are changing, the responsibilities are changing. Everything is changing. And it's like you change something today, and it doesn't mean that you're not gonna change it again in six months because reality is changing also. Um-

Amit: Yeah, so maybe the, the role of a marketing leader in the future is to be a builder, a bit more creative, like probably more creative and product marketing oriented, and you need to all of the time think about what tools I have at the moment and what is the best structure for it. Because like you said, it's evolving all of the time.

Nimrod: Yeah. I mean-

Amit: It's impossible to really plan something for more than a year today.

Nimrod: Yeah.

Amit: Like really plan it.

Nimrod: We, we want people to be orchestrators, so we want them to be able, like you said, to build things themselves. If you wanna build your automation, you don't need R&D for that anymore. You can just-

Amit: That's right

Nimrod: ... connect to the API and do it yourself. If you saw that in a campaign, uh, uh, static ads work for you, you don't need the marketing, the creative team again anymore to, to do it for you. Just create your, create your own banners. Um, still UA is important, but it's not as, um, difficult as it used to be. A lot of things are already either automated by us or by the ad networks that made life much more simplistic without targeting, without, uh, any frequent changes. Like just dump your creatives on us, and we'll do the, we'll do the work. So, uh, it's not like there is no UA work to do, but it's not like it used to be. So we, we want people to do more, to get involved with product, with analytics, with monetization, with creative, with, with everything that they can touch. Um, and, uh, yeah, and to, to become orchestrators of all of it.

Amit: So now the big question is... Okay, I know a lot of people, you also know a lot of people, but in the industry everyone's saying they are AI native, blah, blah, blah, and et cetera. We worked together for a long time, and we know your teams for a long time. I can really say to everyone that is listening also that your teams, all of them are like super, super, super AI oriented, let's put it like that. Like super, like one of the best competing with us all of the time. Some... A lot of time they win. Uh, really, really understanding the core of AI. And like you say, they-- I believe, I don't know it like you, but I believe they have this vision of orchestrators and it's, how practically you really integrate AI into the people and also give them the passion. I don't know if give or make them have the passion like you personally have because the alternative for that, and this is what I see with most of the game companies or general companies that are saying they are AI nati-native, you have this AI team.

Nimrod: Yeah.

Amit: That this AI team is thinking, so the people themself across company are not really AI oriented.

Nimrod: Yeah.

Amit: So how do you make the people to really believe in the tools, the usage of them to understand, okay, this is the future. It's not going to-- It's not a double-edged sword that is going to damage me personally. So really how do you make it? Because this is the big, the big one.

Nimrod: Uh, it's not easy. Uh, step by step. No, I mean, really, you, you start with telling them the cliches, uh, "AI will not replace you." "Don't be afraid of AI. The ones who will survive will be the ones that..." Obviously you start with that because, uh, at the beginning there was like, uh, they thought we're gonna fire all of them, uh, and we will not need anyone. And in reality-

Amit: That's a bit more you said. Yeah

Nimrod: ... in reality, we didn't fire anyone because AI replaced them. If we let someone go, it's because they just didn't embrace AI-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Nimrod: ... uh, well enough or good enough or fast enough or whatever, but it's not because AI just took their job. Uh, so I think that once people realized that AI is not taking their job, uh, they started treating it as just another tool in their toolbox. Um, and again, it wasn't easy because someone would tell me, "It will still take me less time to do it in After Effect than doing it on, on, uh, I don't know, on Seedance."

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Nimrod: And, um, it could be a good answer to a question, uh, if it's not, if it wasn't like the biggest revolution of the- ... 21st century. Uh, but it's like, uh, graphic designers a few years ago when, uh, Photoshop came out, they would say, "It's, uh, I just draw it really quickly and like I, I don't, I don't really need this fancy, uh, software." But the ones who didn't embrace it didn't survive. So we first let them understand that even though it takes them-- they're more efficient with the old tools, they need to master the new tools. And then we just show them value. Uh, I think that everyone in the team had this wow moment, uh, when working with AI that, you know, one thing that it did... Like he, he could do things that he couldn't do before, or thing that they did scaled to completely new levels.

Amit: And this is, I assume, insane.

Nimrod: And, uh, I, I don't know if you can curse, but like y- you, th- there is that moment of the, "Holy fuck. Holy fuck."

Amit: Yeah, it's, it's insane.

Nimrod: And, and it's insane. And once you have this moment, you can never go back. So-

Amit: I had it in San Francisco in a hotel, not in San Francisco, in Los Angeles for a trip, and I was... I think it was morning, and I, I understood that my life changed really with Claude specifically, but this was my moment. I remember it like drinking-

Nimrod: Yeah

Amit: ... orange juice and like, "Fuck."

Nimrod: Yeah.

Amit: "I'm so happy."

Nimrod: Like I said, I have no technical background whatsoever.

Amit: Yeah, me too, brother.

Nimrod: No design backg- I'm now making short drama videos for- ... for Globe. Okay? Why? Because I can, because I enjoy it. So, so the, the first video I did was terrible. The s- the, the second one was amazing. Amazing. And, and things that, you know, as a marketing team, we would need to work weeks or months to produce that kind of video, I did it in half a day. Uh, and, and that moment, like you feel, "Okay, I, we can do everything." So we got so many superpowers, and then it's still, you know, it's still... You still need to convince a lot of people to, to move 'cause some people prefer to stay where it's comfortable.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Nimrod: Uh, so we, in the last six months, we didn't let them, uh, be in their comfort zone. Uh, we really pushed people to, to do more, to increase quantities, to increase qualities, to do things that, uh, they didn't do before, to build systems, to, uh, to build workflows, to build a lot of things that will, uh, make their lives easier in the future. And, uh, it doesn't, uh, work well with everyone. Uh, but you see, you see things are moving slowly, slowly, slowly. Um, obviously, it was easier just to bring some AI motion designer, 20-year-old that all he knows is just how to make things with AI. But we have like really veterans in the, in the, in the team that, you know, used to do things for the s- the same way for the last six, seven, eight years, and now we're telling them we need to do it completely differently, and it, and it takes time. Like you can't... It's hard to teach a, an old dog new tricks, uh, but, uh-

Amit: But it's a must, I think

Nimrod: ... but it's a must. A must.

Amit: Yeah.

Nimrod: And, and today, with the, uh, amount of creative that the ad networks require from us, uh, and the diversity, uh, Meta, TikTok, AppLovin, Unity, like they're all asking for tons of creatives, and every time you talk to them, you feel like you're not doing enough even though you're improving.

Amit: This is the trick.

Nimrod: You're improving. And they always tell you, "Yeah, but they're launching 400 ads a week." And I say, "Okay, but I'm doing only 20."

Amit: Yeah.

Nimrod: "So how do I get from 20, not to 400, to 200?"

Amit: Yeah.

Nimrod: And then, and then like you need to, to understand that like y- you can't be in the comfort zone. This is not the time for-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Nimrod: ... for comfort, and if you want competitive edge, if you want to be first, if you wanna be better than everyone else, you need to do it. So that's the hardest part for me to kind of convince people that this is the way to go. Uh, but slowly, uh, convincing is no longer an issue. Like people understand it. Now it's time to, you know, just do it better. Um, I can tell you that last week we held a round of, uh, uh, presentations for the whole marketing team. So 35 people had to individually present their AI progress in the last three months. Um, and if you didn't... Like they knew that there is this deadline of the presentation, so even if you didn't do anything in AI, uh, prior to that, you knew that you're gonna need to stand in front of me, our COO, and to kind of present your progress. So everyone had to start doing things.

Amit: Yes, so it's enforcement. Like you're starting with convince-

Nimrod: Some of it, yeah

Amit: ... and then you want to enforce it, like you said, to increase quantities, like to even define higher KPIs-

Nimrod: Yeah

Amit: ... with the same amount of people and say, "Hey guys, this is what we have, and I know there... You sh- you need to believe that the current tools, you can use them in order to reach this goal."

Nimrod: Yeah.

Amit: So it's also enforcement by KPIs.

Nimrod: So the convincing part took us, I don't know, a, a year, a year and a half. Like-

Amit: Yeah, the convincing is the hard part

Nimrod: ... like in the beginning, like let's say one and a half years ago, we said, "Okay, we make all the tools available for you. Play with it."

Amit: Yeah.

Nimrod: "Enjoy. See what you can do."

Amit: It was like-

Nimrod: "Try to bring value"

Amit: ... show me results.

Nimrod: Uh, "If you'll, if you'll do good things, we'll clap." Uh, like we- ... we really wanted people to feel like it's coming to them natively. Uh, but it's time for us to say, uh, we're, we're not... It's not, uh, something that, uh, you can decide anymore. Uh, it's mandatory. This is how we do things now. We're becoming AI native. Everyone in this team should be AI native. Um, and if you didn't do it by now, so in a few weeks you're gonna show us where you stand, and, uh, and, uh, obviously, if you don't want to be in a tricky situation, you'll-

Amit: Yeah.

Nimrod: ... you'll need to start working. So I, I think that, you know, they, they learned about these presentations like four weeks, uh, in advance. And I can tell you that people that didn't touch AI four weeks ago came to this presentation with automation tools that they built for creative, uh, production. They built... They, they worked with creative, uh, ma- uh, market research tools for, for... That they connected, uh, with different, uh, sources, uh, whether it's, I don't know, Sensor Tower or Google or TikTok or whatever. They, they, they, they built amazing things in a matter of few weeks. Uh, and it's just the beginning. Like we, we're not Like suggesting anymore to use AI, this is the enforcement time.

Amit: Yeah.

Nimrod: And, and, and, uh, obviously every new hire to the team will have to have that. We're not gonna do this convincing part all over again. Every new hire will have to have that like as a prerequisite.

Amit: Where do you think the limitation of AI-- Like if for anyone that listens, and again, I can, uh, validate that you have really a lot of experience on AI, really, you and your team, and a lot of knowledge around that area specifically in, you know, in mobile games marketing also. So for everyone that is listening, what, what would you recommend to them not to use AI for? You're saying these are the places that I try to discover if there is an opportunity. Don't go there. It's a waste of time.

Nimrod: Um, the only thing that I really believe should stay within the human factor is the judgment, the judgment call, 'cause you can make automation that builds you, that, I don't know, that shoots you 200 videos every day, but you don't really wanna test 200 videos e-every day. Most of it will look bad. Most of it will be, uh, untestable. Uh, and, and, and judgment is a very important skill to have. What, what are we testing? What are we not testing? Which directions are we taking? Um, what new concepts should we try? Uh, a lot of, you know, um, structural thinking of, of the strategy and on, on... Like, of course, you can ask ChatGPT to build you a creative strategy for a game. I still think that the, the human factor in it is the most crucial one to, to know exactly how to proceed. Uh, but it's a tr- it's a tricky question because you're asking me now, and it will be aired in a few weeks maybe. So maybe by then, ChatGPT will know how to make the judgment calls. But-

Amit: You know, actually, this area is-- First of all, I'm very happy that you said that because this area of novelty or in general, uh, uh, novelty, sorry, and in general exploration and real innovation, it's something that it's an, uh, an inherent issue with LLMs, like because it's a statistic model. The, the way to innovate, it's not trained this way. So-

Nimrod: Yeah

Amit: ... even us as a company, when we present, for example, for, uh, for, I don't know, future investor in the board of directors, what w- where we will have the mode or et cetera, and where are the potential issues, you know, we speak a lot about the, the generation will somehow become commoditized. I don't know if 100%, but maybe 80, 90%, and then you will have the taste part, like the fine tune that maybe you will need maybe set this is where they will be very good in the production side. But actually in the ideation side and how do you come up with the new concept, uh, how do you analyze data in the right way and not doing the same thing, but gaining insights that makes you to generate a new thing. This is the part that really I can tell you LLM sucks, and you haven't seen any real progress in that in the last like year, year and a half. Like I can, I can assure that.

Nimrod: Yeah, but do you think it will still be like that in five years from now?

Amit: In five years? I don't know. This is a good question. So I assume not, uh, because new research, like in-- We have an internal research initiative called Structural Ideation, for example, that is understanding how to extract, uh, a novelty from, uh, an innovation from LLMs. So I assume there are, you know, a lot of other efforts like that. I don't know if specifically in, you know, mobile games marketing, creative ideation, which is more specific to us. I assume it will be also less of an issue, but I don't know if the current LLMs and the, the even LLM in general will be the solution there.

Nimrod: Yeah.

Amit: It will be some sort of AI. I don't know what exactly. It will be less of an issue, I believe so.

Nimrod: Yeah. No, I, I, I don't believe on a full automated marketing team. I, I do want all the people we have with me because, because they're making great choices, and they have great taste, and they, they know more than the LLM, and they know what-- how to tweak the campaign the right way because it's not just a set of, uh, rules that you can predefine and, uh, and, uh, and everything will be fine. Like, uh, if you wanna keep like a stagnant line of nothing happens, yeah, the 100% you can do like full, uh, automated, uh, fully automated marketing team. But if you wanna grow and if you want things to, to, to improve week over week, uh, it's the people who make that, uh, using AI, using the tools that are available. But, but the people are the ones that are helping us grow, not the AI.

Amit: Amazing. So let's now play a game-

Nimrod: Okay

Amit: ... as the last, the last, uh, few questions. So we have here cards.

Nimrod: Okay.

Amit: In the cards you have, uh, questions that I don't know them. Sometimes it's, uh- ... too personal, sometimes it's a bit weird, cringe, but sometimes it's great actually, and we learn something new. So we can pick any one of them, read the question, and then you must answer no matter what.

Nimrod: When was the last time you were a complete beginner at something?

Amit: Oh my God, no. You must pick-

Nimrod: So we talked about it.

Amit: We talked about it. So switch one. No, you need to switch. You need to switch.

Nimrod: Okay. What's the smallest part of your job that nobody would guess genuinely brings you joy?

Amit: Wow. And you can't say AI.

Nimrod: I can't say AI. What's left?

Amit: I'd say-

Nimrod: Lunch.

Amit: No one would g- No one would guess.

Nimrod: Um, that's a hard one 'cause n-nothing is, uh, secret about, uh, my job. It's not like I'm doing things- ... for, for myself like, uh, that are not AI. Um, I think that the one-- the, the thing that, you know, brings me joy, and again, it keeps me, uh, motivated after 10 years in, in, in, in CrazyLabs, is the fact that everything is changing all the time. All the time. Like it's not the same company, it's not the same team, it's not the same people. It's not the same me. Um, everything is changing and it's not by, you know, once in a, in a decade, it's every couple of years it's a completely different company. Um, and that what, you know, keeps me happy about, about what I do. Um, especially because we're also working on, uh, on games and it's not like we're dealing with, you know, serious issues of the world. So, so yeah, uh, that's, that's my, my joy from, from, from work that, you know, I'm doing something that I love and it keeps changing. So I keep learning new things all the time. Um, and new challenges come all the time. And, uh, we have, um, pretty amazing competitors that we are also learning from and we're also collaborating with and, uh, and this whole ecosystem of, of gaming and what we do is just, uh, just a lot of fun.

Amit: Amazing. As a last question.

Nimrod: Yeah.

Amit: The real last one, what do you think will be the role of a UA manager in the near and far future?

Nimrod: So we already define, like defined the new role, uh, the UA 2.0, uh, internally, uh, it's no longer just a media buyer role. Uh, we see it as like, uh, the UA manager is, uh, like a CMO of his game. Uh, so you're not just responsible for the bids to be accurate or to the ROAS to be on point or to the profit-profitability targets of the game. Uh, we talked about orchestration, so you need to be on the, uh, product, uh, discussions to lead the product development for growth, uh, reasons. We talked about segmentation is one example, but I can tell you that UA people are sitting in product meetings and kind of forcing them into directions that, uh, that, uh, sometimes they don't want to take. Uh, we're working on a game now, and the decision whether to add interstitials to the game is coming from the UA perspective and, and not me, the UA owner, the UA, uh, the, the CMO of that game is sitting at that meeting and they tell them, "Without interstitials, this game is not gonna scale." And we're adding interstitials because UA insisted. So we're affecting product decisions. Um, UA are now defining the creative strategy of their game. They're no longer just a passive, uh, receiver of creatives from a different team. They tell them how much to wear, uh, what kind. Um, they, they, they also own the store strategy. How many icons do we test? How many screenshots do we do? What kind? Branding decisions like they're marketing owners, uh, hundred percent. So if the creative strategy is not working, we don't blame the creative team for them. We blame the UA for that because they're the owners. They're the-- like you blame the CMO. If the marketing initiatives don't work, you b- you blame the CMO. So for us, the UA role is no longer just, uh, an operator. You're not an operator. Yes, you do some operations. We try to take as many of the operational side away from you with automations and stuff. But, uh, you're a thinker, you're a collaborator. Uh, you need to work with as many teams as possible to make the right decisions to, to, to your game, and you're held accountable for everything that is happening with it. If, uh, product made wrong decis-wrong decisions, we might not hold you accountable for all of their wrong decisions, but if you weren't there to just say that, uh, it will be a bad idea for marketing purposes, uh, then what are you doing? If, uh, if, uh, you don't get the right analysis for your game, for the, that you manage the, the, the right UA analysis, then what are you doing? If the creative that you're getting are not good enough or you're not getting enough creatives, uh, or you're not testing enough, it's your problem. So, so we, we make you the owner of this game, and by ownership, it's all of it. You're the owner of the game from the marketing side. Uh, but, uh, but you're held accountable. So, um, we shifted that. We did that switch about six months ago. Um, and it just made people more, uh, involved and more engaged with the game that they're managing. Um, UA managers are now creating their own creatives. Uh, this is something that, um, I didn't hear about anyone in the industry that, uh, that does that. But if you look at the amount of creative wins that we have currently in the team, fifty percent of them are made by UA managers.

Amit: Wow.

Nimrod: Fifty percent. And it was incremental. Yes.

Amit: Insane.

Nimrod: So, so, so they know what works in their game. They now have more time to do things that are not just optimizations and, uh, creative ops or ad ops. Um, and, uh, they're as excited as I am about AI, or they just have to because I tell them to do it. Uh, but, but, but they're now making creatives, and those creatives win and they win big, and it encourages the rest of the team.

Amit: Yeah, to do more also.

Nimrod: So, so UA manager today and UA manager two years ago, completely different things.

Amit: Nimrod, I think, and I'm saying that for everyone that ever wor- uh, working in the podcast, it was the most fascinating episode I had. No, really, I think, uh, first of all, thank you very much.

Nimrod: Thank you.

Amit: It was really amazing.

Nimrod: Thank you for inviting me.

Amit: Super fascinating. And I think practically for marketing operator or leader, it was the best of the best. Like everything around the structure, AI, the market, and usually, you know, it's not, not only here, but usually, you know, people speak a lot of high level. But I think this is also the world today of the best of the best people. They know how to speak strategy and they know how to speak the most tactical thing. And I think this is what we viewed here.

Nimrod: Yeah, but-

Amit: Like you remind me a lot, uh, like Yoni and myself in a, in the good way of us. Like we have also bad ways, but in the good way of how, how today you see people that can be really leaders, but you know, the strategic thinker, the op- the, the orchestrator and et cetera, but also, you know, hands-on, on everything and can understand a lot of stuff and blah, blah, blah.

Nimrod: This is the time to be hands-on.

Amit: Yeah.

Nimrod: Like there is no-

Amit: So far.

Nimrod: If you, if you're not hands-on, just, just what are you doing? Really.

Amit: So, uh, Nimrod,

Nimrod: Thank you very much.