Creative as the Only Lever You Control, Attribution as a Hunt for the Truth, and the Death of the UA Operator

Tap to unmute

In this episode, Amit sits down with Amos Adler, VP of Growth at SciPlay and a graduate of the Dawap Mafia, the Israeli mobile marketing school that produced a large chunk of the people running UA today. From Dawap to Director of UA at DGN Games, then to SciPlay where he moved from Director of UA to VP of Growth, Amos now runs an org of around 50 people across performance marketing, creative strategy and the marketing art studio.

Social casino is a matured market and a red ocean. Fresh users are scarce, recycling is constant, and the competitive set is sharp, which is exactly what makes the conversation useful. Amos talks about growth the way an analyst talks about a system: creative as the only lever fully in his hands, attribution as a permanent hunt for the truth rather than a one-time decision, and a near future where the UA operator role disappears and commerce, CPA and IAA run 90% autonomous.

What Growth Actually Means
Growth is an umbrella term, and Amos is upfront that every company fills it differently. At SciPlay his version is weighted toward digital advertising rather than new revenue streams, and brand sits outside his remit.

"It is an umbrella term, like every different company will have different definitions."

The reason the function exists at all comes down to how large the addressable market has become. Gaming is bigger than the worldwide movie industry and the music industry, with players in every demographic from five-year-olds to 85-year-olds, so anyone who wants market share needs someone whose job is to find the next bet.

"You have gamers from every demographic, every possible demographic, from five-year-olds to 85 year olds, which means that the market cap is huge. And if you want to grow in market share, you need to have the initiatives and the endeavors to make it happen."

He keeps brand in a separate box for a reason that lines up with everything else he says about measurement. Brand has real byproducts and deserves spend if you believe in it, and it still refuses to behave like a deterministic model.

"How I perceive growth is very, let's call it mathematical, which brand is something that if you believe in it, you should allocate, spend, and try to the best of our capabilities, understanding the ripple effects of how it contributes to growth. But it's not a deterministic model that you can 100% know that it's worthwhile."

Hiring Moved From Experience to Potential
Amos has interviewed enough people to compare a five-year veteran from a leading competitor against a junior, and the comparison keeps landing on the same side.

"Strong, talented people have the potential to cover in six months what person that is doing for five years in the industry."

He says the craft itself is learnable, which is a blunter position than most growth leaders will take publicly.

"At the end of the day, and I don't mean to sound rude, it's not rocket science. You need to be creative, you need to be with a lot of agency, you need to operate, you need to be on top of things, but everything is teachable."

That conviction changed how he recruits.

"That's why I moved in the last couple of years of recruiting, let's say, experience to potential."

The Onboarding Factory and the 120/100 Contract
Hiring for potential only works if you can manufacture the knowledge, and this is where being inside a big company becomes an advantage. Amos took the model from Dawap, which he describes as a factory that produced people who thought about acquisition the right way, with new batches cycling through every couple of months.

"One of the great things about Dawap, that they were first in the industry, it was a factory of producing people that know to think, how I perceive it, the right way about acquisition."

At SciPlay that became a detailed onboarding deck with more than 100 sessions, heavy shadowing and training exercises built specifically to surface potential.

The trade he asks for in return is explicit, and it is the line most managers in the audience will steal.

"I'm more than happy to give my best version of myself to you guys, but I need the best version of you guys."

"I will bring my 120%, you give me your 100%. Beside that, why should I invest my time in you?"

He treats hiring as a two-way commitment rather than a favor granted to a candidate.

"Any job interview is a dual contract. I need to make sure that the person is right for me, and I need to make sure that I'm the right person for him."

His advice to Amit on the startup side of the same problem was about the funnel rather than the people, because the first month is a bad sample.

"My advice would be make sure that you're 100% content with the onboarding funnel that you have. I did see cases of people that the first month was terrible for them, and now they're my best employees."

Agency Is the Scarce Skill Now
Knowledge has a ceiling and it arrives fast. Two or three months in, Amos says, you can have everything you need to know. What separates people after that is how far they take it on their own: researching competitors, reading industry reports, coming back with angles nobody asked for.

"From a knowledge standpoint, two months, three months, you can get all of the knowledge that you need. After that, agency. Agency."

AI raised the value of that trait rather than replacing it, because the tooling that used to gatekeep the profession stopped gatekeeping anything.

"These days there are no entry barriers. With AI, the entry barrier is so low that it puts on a pedestal the ability to bring your own agency, and this is really the highest value that I'm looking for in a candidate."

Creative Is the Only Lever You Control 100%
Amit asks why Amos goes as deep into the creative process as anyone he talks to, and the answer is a matter of control. Publishers, models and algorithms leave you analyzing what already happened. Creative is the one input you set before the auction runs.

"With AppLovin, with Unity, with Facebook, with Google, creative is probably the only lever that you control 100%. Publishers, models, algorithms, it's always like a retroactive analysis compared to proactive approach."

It is also the lever with the largest payoff, which everyone in UA has felt at least once.

"Creative is a huge needle mover. We all saw this one creative that slashed CPIs, with RP stagnant, and suddenly you see ROI goes through the roof, which is an amazing feeling."

He is equally clear that the industry measures it badly, himself included, and that the argument inside his own team is still live.

"There's a lot of misconceptions on how to measure creative success. I think it's very, very, very hard, like the classic correlation causation battle. We still argue about that internally. I think it's a healthy argument, and I think that specifically we under-analyze that."

Social casino narrows the creative space further. The genre has a strict set of concepts that work, and the attempts to escape it kept producing the same verdict.

"We had a lot of experience of trying to move out of this concentric circle, and we constantly saw that it's just not bringing the same results."

Centralizing Creative Strategy: Money on the Floor
The creative strategy team is the team Amos is proudest of building, and it started from a UA manager mentioning that a previous employer had the function.

The logic for centralizing it is about compounding knowledge instead of scattering it.

"You want a centralized knowledge that continues to learn and evolve compared to 15 different UA managers that one likes to do it, one does not."

What the team found once it existed was less a process gap than an unclaimed pile of value, and this is the line to put on the visual.

"We understood how much we're under-analyzing it. There's a lot of money on the floor there."

He now runs the marketing art studio alongside it, which puts production and analysis under the same roof.

How You Actually Know What a Winner Is
Measuring creative starts with logistics rather than insight. Labeling, production counts, cycle time, where each asset was pushed, whether concepts overlap, and a definition of "winner" that can differ from one company to the next and even between two games in the same portfolio.

"You just need to be very detailed with labeling to make sure that you're monitoring how much you produce, how much time it took to be produced, where did you push it? Are there overlaps? Are there not? What is the definition of a winner?"

Then you normalize, because a title spending half a million a month and a title spending 50K cannot be judged on the same scale. What comes out the other side is a measurement foundation you can trend, and the example he gives is the cleanest version of a creative KPI anyone has put on this show.

"In month X, we uploaded 100, and two got more than 20K spend. And in month Y, we uploaded 100, now we have 10."

"So if this is a KPI we believe that is a needle mover, okay, we're doing well."

How Much Creative Is Enough
The volume question gets a benchmarking answer rather than a formula. Amos wants to know where he sits in the percentile distribution of creative uploads, adjusted for lifecycle stage and geography, then he treats the next tier as an experiment.

"First I want to understand the market. I want to make sure that I'm not below benchmarks, and then I would want to give it like a stress test. Let's say I'm 60th percentile, then I say, okay, let's build the foundation of moving to 80th percentile and try to measure, does the needle move? Do I gain anything or am I just increasing my operational expense?"

The Asian operators sit at the top of that distribution, and he refuses to draw a lazy conclusion from it.

"If we look at a lot of Asian operators these days, we see the amount they produce, it's like the 99th percentile. We don't know to say whether this is the motivator for them doing well or it's just lower OPEX that they have the option to spend more."

Isolating the effect is genuinely hard. Audience shifts, CPM changes and placement changes all move CPI and CTR at the same time, and going granular enough for a clean comparison can leave you with 30% of your spend and no easy way back up to a portfolio-level answer.

The same skepticism applies to creative budget benchmarks. He knows he has been consciously below the market, and he is not willing to call that a mistake without the math.

"I'm spending single digits out of my market spend on creative, and we have another company that spends 15%, it doesn't mean that I'm wrong. Maybe in the grand scheme of things, EBITDA wise, bottom line, it's better to compromise 5% out of CPIs and spending less here. But we're constantly moving those levers and see what composition works best for us."

Attribution Is a Hunt for the Truth
The strongest section of the conversation. Attribution is built on the data you happen to have, which means every platform decision quietly rewrites your model.

"The moment a platform, Apple or Google or even Facebook or AppLovin changes one of the metadata that they send, suddenly you have a darker picture or a brighter picture, or you can think differently at things."

iOS 14 was the extreme version of that, and smaller versions arrive constantly through privacy changes and through MMPs starting to send fields that were never available before. So the model has to keep moving.

Amit reframes it as a question about truth, and Amos takes the frame.

"I'm not a philosophical person, but the what is truth is basically what it means about attribution."

He is candid that the answer depends on what the business is optimizing for, which is the part most attribution conversations dance around.

"It changes between a startup, between a company that is pushing for EBITDA, when you're pushing for top line growth. If tomorrow I'm opening a startup, I will probably build the most lenient attribution model because I would look for investments coming in to finance my operation, so it's different."

In a red ocean with limited fresh supply, accuracy converts directly into efficiency, and the numbers he shares are the ones people will quote.

"Because we are a matured company, because the industry is a red ocean, and because real new growth in this space of bringing new fresh users, it's not that high, there's a lot of recycling, it's even more important for us to filter out the spend that we shouldn't necessarily spend."

"We slashed retargeting spend by 30% or so, and we lost less than 2% of revenue, which means how much more efficient you can be."

He credits an internal attribution team he rates at the 99th percentile of the industry, and he does not pretend the relationship is frictionless. Marketing has a structural incentive to prefer a generous model.

"It's not an easy collaboration because obviously from a marketing standpoint, the easier the attribution, you seem like you're doing a better job."

The way he resolves that tension is by moving the argument off marketing's scoreboard and onto the company's.

"Freeing up cash from faulty marketing spend can enable you acquiring another company, can enable you open a new game, can enable you to experiment with TV or new sources or brand awareness."

And there is a limit to how long he will hunt before shipping.

"You need to be also wary from analysis paralysis here. I'm a Pareto kind of guy. I want to ship things with 80% readiness just to advance, and sometimes in attribution you can continue and dwell, and dwell, and dwell, and analyze, and another test, another test."

The Death of the UA Operator
Halfway through the AI question, Amos stops and comes back to a point he wants stated plainly. The old career ladder in UA ran on volume: more spend under management meant a better operator. That ladder is gone.

"In the past, when you wanted to grow in UA, you take more spend, you're a better operator. We don't need operators anymore. We need analysts. We need people who think. We need people that understand how the attribution funnel really works, how to analyze that, how to experiment and get to different levels."

Commerce, CPA and IAA Go 90% Autonomous
His forecast splits by business model rather than by team. Social casino IAP resists automation because the economies involve long, hard-to-predict touch points, and feeding a system enough context to handle it is expensive.

The predictable side of the market is a different story.

"But commerce, CPA, IAA, I think that it will be 90% autonomous in the next couple of years, just because it's super predictable, and once something is very predictable, you already have loops to control content."

Content generation is already handled, in his read, on a timeline of months rather than years. The missing pieces are the connectors, and those are arriving.

"You now see MCPs, official MCPs of AppLovin, Unity, Facebook, more, and more, and more. So as long as they give you all of the connectors needed to operate, you'll invest six months in building the right context model, and then it will take 90% of the work."

The Wave
For individual careers, he treats this moment as the fork, and the metaphor is his own.

"This is undoubtedly the pivotal moment in people's careers. I always give this analogy of there's a wave coming, it can drown you, or you can ride on it, and that is being defined by how exploratory you are with AI."

The tool only pays out on initiative, and he is skeptical of top-down mandates to adopt it.

"It's an enabler. It gives you the opportunity to learn whatever you want as fast as you have the time to invest. But it's only based on your agency. There's a limit of how much I will tell people, I want you to optimize how you answer emails. They need to think about it from the pain that they feel in the day-to-day experience."

New Studios: More Shots on Goal, Higher Bar
Asked whether a founder starting a studio three years from now can still scale, Amos answers "for sure" without hesitation, then complicates it. Growing a new game is much harder. Trying is much cheaper.

"The entry barrier in terms of trying is significantly lower. By vibe coding or by art, it's much quicker for me to pivot or to test another concept, another game, so I can have many more shots on goal. But maybe the KPI threshold that you need to meet is higher."

Scale is no longer the incumbent's moat.

"I don't think that being in a big company gives you an advantage necessarily of launching a new top-notch concept. From an entertainment standpoint, we'll always have new games. I don't think it's the luxury of only big companies."

He and Amit walk through where the money is actually coming from now: UA financing as a two to three year trend, banks alongside specialist firms, governments in markets like Turkey and Malaysia, and growth in Turkey, Vietnam and Korea.

Wrap Up
The thread through the whole conversation is a refusal to accept a number at face value. Creative gets a measurement foundation because opinions were leaving money on the floor. Attribution gets revisited every time a platform changes what it tells you. Volume benchmarks get stress tested instead of copied. Even his own creative budget, below market by his own admission, stays an open question rather than a settled one.

The same posture shows up in how he builds people. Teach the profession in two months, then look for the thing you cannot teach.

His own answer to the eight-year-old question is a reminder that most careers are not planned. He wanted to be a veterinarian, went as far as watching an operation at seven or eight and writing a paper about it, then became pragmatic after the army. He has been playing games for almost 35 years and intends to play for 35 more, which is closer to the real explanation.

"I'm not an innovator. I am very good at improving examples I see outside. I will take 10% from here, 20% from here, 40% from here and would mash it into something of my own."

For a leader running eight similar titles in a red ocean, that is less modesty than a job description.

---

The Full Transcript:

Amit: So, Amos, great to have you here.

Amos: Great being here.

Amit: So today we have, eh, Amos Adler, eh, started in the, eh, Dawap, eh, Mafia here in Israel that is similar to the PayPal Mafia of Peter Thiel and Elon Musk.

Amos: Second after, of course.

Amit: Second -- Eh, then, eh, worked as a director of UA at, eh, DGN games, and now started as director of UA at SciPlay, now VP of growth. So thank you very much for, for being here. My first question to you is, what the hell is, eh, growth?

Amos: It's a really good question that I'm not sure that I know how to answer myself. Um, first of all, it is an umbrella term, like every different-- every company will have different definitions. Even in SciPlay, what I'm doing, uh, specifically as VP growth is more focused on digital adv-advertising, less new revenue stream. But in general, um, in any company life cycle, you need to find the next bets in order for you to grow. Um, for social casino, which predominantly is where we play at, uh, there's a lot of, uh, difficulties. There's a lot of headwinds. It's a very matured market. It's a very competitive market, uh, which makes it fun, makes it interesting, and we have a team of smart people to work, uh, with me to hopefully continue making it happen.

Amit: Do you think-- I, I, I know that you said that in every company the umbrella of growth is different, but how you view growth is like putting aside the new revenue stream. This thinking of growth, do you think every company in mobile games today should, should have this position, growth?

Amos: Essentially, yes. Like you can call it in different names, but, um, with the expansion of gaming that is such a mainstream industry today, I, th-there's like a, a session I do to new recruits that I always give the example that gaming is bigger than the worldwide movie industry, I think, and the music industry.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: Which means, and you see it, if you'll go to the US, uh, you'll see 10 different TV ads for gaming at any given moment. Uh, and the fact that you have gamers from every demographic, every possible demographic, from five-year-olds to 85 year olds, uh, means that the market cap is huge. And if you want to grow in market share, you need to have the initiatives and the endeavors to make it happen. Um, it can be off game, it can be in game, it can be brand partnerships, it can be digital marketing, um, endless.

Amit: So growth is including everything for, for you, like in SciPlay, everything from UA, eh, branding, IP collaboration or some kind of, eh, partnerships, creatives and like everything is under this type of umbrella.

Amos: Branding is another animal that we can-

Amit: Okay

Amos: Talk differently. Specifically, this is not, you know, my, my ecosystem. This is not how I grew up, not from, you know, what I learned, eh, professionally and, and what I'm doing today at SciPlay. But it is eventually is important.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: Like even if it's hard to measure, there are byproducts of investing in brand. Um, I don't know if it necessarily needs to be connected because how I perceive growth is very, let's call it mathematical, uh, which brand is something that if you believe in it, you should like allocate, spend, and try to the best of our capabilities, understanding the ripple effects of how it contributes-

Amit: Mm

Amos: To growth. But it's not a de-deterministic, um, model that you can 100% know, um, that it's worthwhile. Uh, I know that we're gonna talk about attribution later. It's all connected together. Uh, but for SciPlay it is separated.

Amit: Okay.

Amos: It's, it's just not my forte.

Amit: Okay, perfect. So one thing that you and I speak about a lot is management, leadership, how to build your team. You manage a lot of different teams, I think, uh, more than 50 people. Uh, how many people are you managing?

Amos: Something like that.

Amit: Yeah. So you manage a lot of people. Today in games, and not only in Israel, but in general, talent is-- you don't have a lot of talent like every other industry, and you want this talent density in your team. So how do you build a very successful and strong marketing department in games today?

Amos: So in general, about talent in acquisition, I think it changed over time, I think, and, and you see it just with how quick Israeli companies were to adapt into this market. We had a ton of talent, and then we grew so much, um, in such like aggressive way that you had to bring workforce.

Amit: Mm.

Amos: Uh, and then I think the depth of analysis and how you perceive, uh, acquisition kind of like became more routine, less creative, uh, less granular. And I think, a-and I see it when I interview, you know, I can interview people that have five years of experience in one of the lead competitors, um, compared to a junior. And I don't-- I know where is the highest potential. I think that, you know, if you look at the curve, I think that strong, talented people have the potential to cover in six months what person that is doing for five years-

Amit: Mm

Amos: In the industry. Um-At the end of the day, a-and I don't mean to sound rude, it's not rocket science. Like, you need to be creative, you need to be with a lot of agency, you need to operate, you need to be on top of things, but everything is teachable. You just need to have the right mindset of absorbing, giving your new angles, being creative, being curious, being analytical, and that's why I moved in the last couple of years of recruiting, let's say, experience to potential.

Amit: Ah, I understand. How do you nurture the potential? You know, one thing that is, uh, very, very famous in the tech world that, uh, Jensen, the CEO of NVIDIA, is saying that this torture for greatness, like that he, he specifically, I don't know how much it's true, but he doesn't fire. He started the, that he wiped, I don't know, stairs at some, and now he's the CEO of NVIDIA. He said, "Everyone can do everything, so I torture my people to the great-- like, to the greatest potential." So, when you have this guy, you're saying, "Okay, I'm hiring less experience, more potential, people with potential, maybe a bit more junior," how do you nurture them for greatness?

Amos: So this is one of the luxuries of working in a big company that we have the time to allocate into procedures, into doing things the right way, rather than, you know, the ongoing pursuit of just explode it with every second that you get. And we built a very detailed onboarding deck, and this is something that actually took from DAOP. Like, one of the great things about DAOP that they were first in the industry, it was a factory of producing people that know to think how I perceive it, the right way about acquisition, and it was a factory. Like, people come and go every two months, there's a, a new batch of people that learn. Uh, people move to different positions, to product, to, uh, gaming companies, like outside of the organization, and this is what we're trying to do. So we have, I wanna say, more than 100 sessions, um-

Amit: Wow

Amos: Of onboarding.

Amit: Wow.

Amos: You know, throwing out knowledge as much as we can. A lot of, uh, shadowing, a lot of training exercises to look for that potential. But my request to people, uh, throughout this process, I'm more than happy to put or to give my best version of myself to you guys, but I need the best version of you guys. Um, and to do that, I think it's, uh, an important indicator of making sure that people give you 120%, like, of their brain power initially. I truly believe that, you know, from, uh, from the army, when you start in a new place, you need to like, you need to understand that you have the, uh, Um, so when you start at a new place, I really believe that you need to be a sponge and absorb-

Amit: Mm

Amos: As much as you can from people and give them the credit to know how to grow you over time, uh, to know how to expose, how to give you the research questions, how to, um, put you in tandem with someone you can learn from, um, at the expense of slightly longer learning curve.

Amit: Oh, so how much time do you think is ideal for someone like that in terms of onboarding? Like, what is the onboarding time do you think is a must in order to say this guy has a potential?

Amos: Mm-hmm. When I look at myself, I think that in four months probably I managed second amount of, second highest amount of spend in DAOP, like people that did, did it a couple of years. And it's not to glor my-- glorify myself. It's just by saying that from a knowledge standpoint, two months, three months, you can get all of the knowledge that you need. After that, agency. Agency. Uh, like how far you can take it, how deep you're thinking, um, if you're researching competitors, different genres, if you read about industry reports, if you think about analyzing this angle and that angle. And like the beauty of it, and I know it's also a topic we're gonna talk about later, is like these days there are no entry barriers. Like with AI, the entry barrier is so low that it puts on a pedestal the ability to bring your own agency, and this is like really the highest value that I'm looking for in a candidate. Not the only one, but the highest value that I'm looking for. Um, because it, it just, you know, like a sense of motivation. If you are eager to learn and you have the foundation of teach you the profession, then, then it's on you. Uh, and circles back that you need the right people for that.

Amit: So it's a lot about hungry. You know, it's something that we also deal a lot with the company, uh, like in the company with. For example, like I look at Yoni and myself. For people that, uh, don't know, Yoni is my, the co-founder of Chat. Uh, both of us are, uh, comparatively young for, uh, founders and, you know, we believe that we can do everything that, uh, we are super hungry. We can do everything, right? We just need to learn, we are curious and et cetera. So we optimize at the beginning the company towards hiring, uh, hungry, curious people. Um, but then it was very hard to understand who you're not, who you're too believing in. Like one big thing that I'm now thinking about myself is that sometimes I do believe in the people too much, and you don't really have the potential that you want to get them. So it's a very, I think, hard tension to manage today, especially like you said with AI. So really experience is, is not the main thing that you're looking at, right? It's, it's an important thing. Depends if you want executive role, so maybe you want, you will look about more stuff that, uh, this guy, uh, have done in the past. But now that you really don't have a lot of, like you can do basically everything that you want without a lot of experience, uh, it's very hard to understand who are the winners and the losers after pretty like fast time like-For us, the company, you know, it's, it's running, it's a young startup, so one and a half month to two months you want to understand who is a winner and who is a loser-

Amos: Mm-hmm

Amit: Like, uh, if, uh, we will phrase it like that. It's very hard. Like, it's a tension that I'm fighting on a lot. I first of all said only juniors, then only super experienced, then they are too slow. So this, it's a weird combination that you want between someone that is experienced, non-biased, cur- uh, curious, and hungry. Very hard to find them.

Amos: First of all, I wanna start with what you and Yoni are doing. It's the 99th percentile. Like, you guys, you said young, and again, I mean it as a joke. You're annoyingly young. You guys are young, smart, fast, capable, and to see that from, from the side, like, uh, I'm filled with, uh, with envy-. looking at you guys. So really it's an am- amazing journey for you guys. Um-

Amit: You're from the start with us, from the beginning.

Amos: Yeah. Um, and there's no, like, set formula for that, no pun intended. Um, like, eventually you have. Sometimes you'll have opportunities. Even you have a junior pro- uh, program, and suddenly there's someone that you really like, that thinks like you, and you have the opportunity to onboard him, you need to operate on that. So I don't have a set formula for that. I really empathe- empathe- empathize with what you're saying about, um, you need to be slightly more aggressive, uh, for the business. Um, I'm still evolving in that front.

Amit: Mm.

Amos: I really, um, connect to what you said, like, as a mentor, it's always easy to give another chance, another shot, because it's a mirror for yourself as well. Like, you decided to bring this person-

Amit: Yeah

Amos: You had faith in him, you put time and effort. For us also as a, as a big company that we manage millions of dollars, I have the responsibility to successfully manage X amount of spend, and I don't wanna be at the position that I tell a GM, or I don't know, a CRO, whatever, um, I can't spend as much for game X because, uh, I want to, you know, to let go of some people or, um, take more time to recruit. This is how I thought at first, but first I see that there's enough backup from the organization of saying, "No, like, it's definitely a hit you should take," because this is a, like, this is short-term, um, sights.

Amit: Mm.

Amos: Focusing about the long term, you need the right people ahead of you. This is what will help us to compound success later on. So I'm still trying to figure out myself, like, what is the balance? What is the amount of time, the amount of faith that you need to give? But I'm always reminding myself that I have the responsibility of helping an organization, and focusing on the own. look on one individual is not necessarily the right way to do that.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: Um, but I do believe that I have, and my org have a paramount importance of teaching people how to operate. Like, I don't believe there's a how you're born with and that's it.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: So we need to do the best of our ability to teach people that mindset, and if by three, four, six, or even someone has changed after two years, then, then you'll hold him back because maybe in another industry, another company, he'll have better opportunities.

Amit: Uh, amazing. So let-

Amos: That was a long answer.

Amit: No, but it's. Look, it's a very hard, it's a deep challenge. You know? It's not, you don't have answers like, uh. The, the answer is not simple. You know, it can't be simple because it's such a complex topic to understand if someone is good for a company, what is the vision of this person, what is the potential journey and the development process that he can make. It's not a, you don't have a binary answer of, you know, after two months I know that and that. I tried to do it in the past. I now understand that, again, it's a very, we're a very young startup, a bit over 50 people. Now we also grew, so we, we have this growth, uh, pains, let's call it like that. But I try to have my thesis that after a month, I understand the guy mindset. After three months, I understand if he can provide or not the performance.

Amos: So my advice would be make sure that you're 100% content with the onboarding funnel that you have. I did see cases of people that the first month was terrible for them, and now they're my best employees.

Amit: Yeah.

Amos: So I don't know if one month is-

Amit: You know what was the switch they, do you think they made, these type of people? 'Cause a lot of executives are listening here probably have the same, seeing the stuff that you saw last year, two years ago, three years ago, you're seeing today. So-

Amos: So, so let's divide it to, to mindset and, like, how you carry yourself.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: I think there's a lot of people that are uncomfortable in new environments and take time to, you know, come out of their shell, and maybe are a bit insecure and maybe are a bit, you know, scared to ask or to push the right, you know, rocks because that's what we're trying to, you know, for this critical think of, of changing and-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Amos: And criticizing everything, and some people are uncomfortable with that. Um, and sometimes it takes for them some time, you know, to be more open, and then you start to see the spark. But if you see people that don't give you their 100%, this is, like, uh, a non-negotiable to me. Um, like, this is what I require. A- and again, this is the analogy. I will bring my 120%, you give me your 100%. Beside that, why should I invest my time in you?

Amit: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's mutual thing. Yeah, a lot of people forget it. I also say it a lot in interview. It's a, it's a mutual decision for both of it. It's not like we need to say to you, "Yes, you also." So-

Amos: Definitely. I always say it

Amit: It's like setting of expectations.

Amos: Any job interview is a, uh, is a, a dual contract.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: Like, I need to make sure that the person is right for me, and I need to make sure that I'm the right person for him.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: Because again, like, every person can handle themselves differently in a corporate, in a startup.In low tech, in high tech, and, and it's a very demanding environment, and you need to reduce the margin of error for not bringing the right person for you and for them.

Amit: Yeah. No, bringing the wr- the wrong person, it's the toughest thing in the world. Like it's a real pain. Like we've, you know, everyone experienced that. So let's switch to another, uh, topic that is very interesting. You are managing everything around performance marketing in SciPlay. Again, we know for a very long time, I think maybe three years from now. From all of the VP growth, VP marketing people that I have ever met, you are one of. You may be in Dream Games, the guy Ali from Dream Games that I'm speaking with him a lot, very deep in the creative process, the attribution of it, how it really impact the performance of the campaigns and et cetera. Why do you think that you are so into creatives and what is happening there?

Amos: First of all, thank you for the comparison. Being in the same sentence with Dream Games-. is always something I will take 100% of the time. Um, multiple reasons for that. Um, first, these days, you know, with Applovin, with Unity, with Facebook, with Google, creative is really like. Facebook may be less because you have a lot of degrees of freedom to control, but creative is probably the only lever that you control 100%. Uh, publishers, models, algorithms, it's always like a retroactive analysis compared to proactive approach. Uh, and creative is a huge needle mover. Like you, you see it. Like we all saw this one creative that slashed CPIs, uh, with RP stagnant, and suddenly you see ROI goes through the roof, which is an amazing, uh, feeling. And I think that there's a lot of misconceptions on how to measure creative success. I think it's very, very, very hard, like the classic correlation causation, you know, battle. Um, we still argue about that internally. I think it's a healthy argument, and I think that specifically we under-analyze that. Um, maybe because of the industry, maybe because in social casino there's very, you know, strict type of creatives-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Amos: That works the best. Uh, and we had a lot of experience of trying, you know, to move out of this concentric circle, and we constantly saw that it's just not bringing the same results. Um, and also it's one of like the most exciting teams that I've built, um, the creative strategy team. Now I also manage the marketing art studio, but at first it started with a creative strategy team. Um, it started from a conversation with one of the UA managers that told me that they had such a function in the company they worked before. I said, "It sounds really exciting. Uh, let's try. Let's see how it works." It makes sense, um, because you want a centralized knowledge that continues to learn and involved compared to 15 different UA managers that one likes to do it, one, uh, does not. And it was a really fun experience because we understood how much we're under-analyzing it. Um, you can under-analyze it in terms of even if you don't look at how much it costs to produce, there's a ton to analyze. There's a five ton to analyze when you want to connect the logistical chain-

Amit: Mm

Amos: Of who you work with, who gives you value, what is the next step that you want to take, whether it's internal, external, AI, manual, whatnot. Um, and yeah, there's a lot of money on the floor there.

Amit: Right. Amazing. And one of the most important thing in creatives, at the end, you know, no one cares about creative. Everyone cares about what creative gives, and what you're looking for all of the time is this winner, this hero creative that, like you say, slash CPI and et cetera. How, and this is, I know, a hard question, how do you build an internal system of in your-- as a marketing organization of finding these new creative winners?

Amos: So we talked a lot about the KPI that we need as a company-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Amos: To put in place to be able to measure that. You just need to be very detailed with, um, with labeling to make sure that you're monitoring how much you produce, how much time it took to, to be produced, uh, where did you push it? Are there overlaps? Are there not? Uh, what is the definition of a winner? It can be differentiated between one company or even one game to another. Uh, measure, normalize it by the amount of spend. Obviously, you have different sources.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: One that you can spend, uh, half a mil a month. One can be a 50K, so you have to normalize. Um, and then create this standardization of KPI over time. And that's exactly what the creative strategy and also like project management did to create the measurement foundation, the logistical measurement foundation, not like KPI attribution, for us to say, "Okay, in month X, we uploaded, uh, 100, and two got more than 20K spend. And in month Y, we got uploaded 100, now we have 10."

Amit: Mm.

Amos: So if this is a KPI we believe that is a needle mover, okay, we're doing well. Um-

Amit: Oh, interesting. Another hard question for you. Uh, let's say we're taking a network. I'm very interested of understanding your thinking process of when you have, let's say, I have, uh, this game, I'm doing 30 a day spend in Applovin. What-- How your thinking process looks like when you say, "Okay, I need this amount of creatives, this amount of levels, this amount of new concept."

Amos: Yeah.

Amit: Because it's not a math, like it's not a science, but what is your thinking process there?

Amos: So it starts with benchmarking, understanding what are the percentiles of, uh, creative uploads of companies that do well and companies that do okay, but also at different stages of their life cycle. Uh, obviously, if you're ramping up, if you're a new playerYou'll be much more recognizable, like you're new to the market, so I believe the creative benchmarks will be different. Um, it's different also between, um, geolocations. If we look at a lot of like Asian operators these days, we see the amount they produce, it's like the 99th percentile. We don't know to say whether this is the motivator for them doing well or it's just, you know, lower OPEX that they have the option to spend more.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: Um, so first I want to understand the market. I want to make sure that I'm not below benchmarks, and then I would want to give it like a stress test. I do want. Let's say I'm, I'm 60th percentile, then I say, "Okay, let's build the foundation of moving to 80th percentile and try to measure does the needle move. Do, do I gain anything or am I just increasing my, my operational expense?" Um, we did it recently, like with you guys as well. Um, it's hard. It's hard to analyze. No, it's hard to analyze, again, because there are so many degrees of freedom defining what happened to your CTI, uh, sorry, to your CPI or even CTRs, like audience change, uh-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Amos: CPM changes, placement changes. Obviously, you can-- you try to, um, like take it to the deepest granular level, but then if it's only like 30% of your spend because you try to, to do an apples to apples comparison, then doing the upwards aggregation is not as easy. But our analytics team is doing a lot of heavy, you know, load for us to, to crack that. Um, and yeah, if we see the needle move, then okay, we're challenging that questions. There are also benchmarks for how much a company is spending on the creative process, and we know that we were, uh, consciously below, uh, and this is also something we're challenging. If we-- I'm spending, I don't know, as an example, single digits out of my market spend on creative, and we have another company that spends 15%, it doesn't me-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Amos: It doesn't mean that I'm wrong. Maybe in the grand scheme of things, you know, EBITDA wise, bottom line, it's better to compromise 5% uh, out of CPIs and spending less here. Uh, but we're, we're checking, constantly moving those like levers and see what composition works best for us.

Amit: Oh, amazing. One thing that I really remember from you saying about attribution, uh, putting this like general attribution and also creative attribution, is that it's not a one-time process, like this is how I do attribution, but it's a consistent journey that you need to update, look at the truth all of the time and, uh, just understand where you at based on the new learnings, and you need to change it all of the time. You need to be dy- it's in a dynamic process, not something static that you decide on day one. Why this is your approach and how you view attribution?

Amos: First of all, attribution, you can build attribution based on the data that you have. Like, and the moment a platform, Apple or Google or even Facebook or AppLovin changes one of the metadata that they send, suddenly you have a darker picture or a brighter picture, or you can think differently at things. iOS, uh, 16, 14, I forgot, was the prime.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: Like the edge, uh, case, the edge example of that. Um, and it, it's frequent. Like there's enough changes with privacy, um, or evolution of information. Suddenly the MMP will start sending you data that was not available in the past for you to pivot. Um, and because we are a matured company, because the industry is a red ocean, and because, you know, real new growth in this space of like bringing new fresh users, it's not that high. Like there's a lot of recycling.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: It's even more important for us to, to filter out the spend that we shouldn't necessarily spend. Um, and it helped us like shoot up our, our ROI because we're understanding that there's no need for us to spend $20 million a year. Retargeting is a good example for that.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: Uh, we honed it over time, and the latest changes we did, obviously I'm not gonna go into the details, we slashed retargeting spend by 30% or so, and we lost less than 2% of revenue, which means how much more efficient-

Amit: Mm

Amos: You can be. And it applies to UA as well, especially if we have eight different similar games. Uh, there's a lot of optimization that can be done here.

Amit: In. All right. So for. I will say it after a while, but yeah, a lot of optimization. Yeah, you can continue. Uh-

Amos: Uh, you need to have like, uh, in Cyphe there's a, a super strong attribution team.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: Super, super strong. Um, it's not an easy collaboration because obviously from, from a marketing standpoint, the easier the attribution-

Amit: Yeah

Amos: You seem like you're doing a better job. But this is where it comes into place, that there's no. it's for the better of the business. Because freeing up cash from, um, faulty marketing spend can enable you acquiring another company, can enable you open a new game, can enable you to experiment with TV or new sources or brand awareness and whatnot. Um, and we're very conscious about that.

Amit: Oh, that's, uh, super smart. You know, there is a famous story that the, the CEO of Uber, they had a very strong, uh, user acquisition efforts, like a lot of money. I think maybe a bit over hundreds of, uh, millions of dollar every, every year. And one day the rumor says that he just said, "We're stopping it."

Amos: And nothing changed.

Amit: "Let's close it," and nothing changed. Like maybe, you know, 5% drop in revenue, but something insane.

Amos: Classic.

Amit: That everything was organic butJust good example of. I think it's more your mindset of we need all of the time to understand the truth of what is happening so we can adapt. It's a lot about being dynamic. Your mind, your personal mind, seems like Sai plays well, is very dynamic, and what you need to be dynamic on is always understanding, okay, what is the truth and how do I react to it? Uh, you, you want to be proactive somehow, but it's very hard, so you. Maybe the right approach is to understand, to open, uh, the hood all of the time to see what's under it, and then, you know, to react to it in the right way and to update all of your efforts. But yeah, your take on attribution is always, uh, giving me the chills.

Amos: I think it's a good. I think it's a good definition. Uh, uh, I'm not a philosophical person, but the what is truth is, like, basically what it means about-

Amit: Yeah

Amos: Attribution. It changes between a startup, between a company that is putting, you know, uh, EBITDA on the. When you're, um, pushing for EBITDA, when you're pushing for top line growth, you need to be dynamic because it's okay to change the prisms that you look at it. Like if, uh, I don't know, tomorrow I'm opening a startup, I will probably build the most lenient attribution model because I would look-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Amos: You know, for investments coming in to finance my operation, so it's different. I still think that, um, we are the 99th percentile in attribution.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: For like, I'm, I'm proud to say-

Amit: Yeah

Amos: That, uh, our ethic team is 99th percentile, uh, of knowledge in this, uh, industry. Um, but if suddenly, you know, there's a change in market dynamics that you need, I don't know, to put again top line growth on the pedestal, we need to ask, uh, hard questions if whether being 100% accurate is worth it compared to what else we can achieve.

Amit: Yeah.

Amos: And you need to be also wary from like, uh, analysis paralysis here because it can take you. I'm a Pareto kind of guy.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: I want to do ship things with 80%, uh, readiness-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Amos: Just to advance, and sometimes in attribution, like you can continue and dwell, and dwell, and dwell, and analyze, and another test, another test. So I don't know the balance of what is right and what is wrong, but this is like our approach to it.

Amit: Okay, perfect. Now we have a side quest like in a game. So first of all, you have here a customized wine for you.

Amos: Oh.

Amit: Chablis. I'm not-

Amos: Thank you

Amit: Good at wines, but it's for your wife and kids. So first of all, enjoy.

Amos: Especially the kids.

Amit: Yeah, the kids. So just see that their wine.

Amos: Thanks a lot. Appreciate it.

Amit: Uh, and as a fun game, you have here questions. Some of them, I don't know what is written there. I would say sometimes it's deep-

Amos: Okay

Amit: In a weird way, but cool way. So just pick one of them, answer it.

Amos: One?

Amit: You can read it. Yeah, one. We will do another one maybe, but let's see the question. Maybe we'll, uh-

Amos: Okay. I hope it's about, uh-

Amit: Maybe we will start cry here. I don't know.

Amos: I hope it's about Arsenal. All right. What did you want to be when you were eight years old?

Amit: Oh my God. Interesting.

Amos: And what would that kid think of you now? Not only it's a deep question, it's like the worst kind of question for me-. because the thing I hate the most at work is, um, questions like, what do you want to do next?

Amit: In five years.

Amos: Yeah. Where do you want to be?

Amit: How do you view yourself?

Amos: What is your passion?

Amit: Yeah.

Amos: Like stuff like that. Uh, so this reflective aspect is tough. I, I actually, you know, I, I, I, I changed my, my. I wanted to be a veterinarian.

Amit: Really?

Amos: It was my dream. Um, I did. How old you are in second grade? Like seven?

Amit: Seven.

Amos: Uh, seven, eight, I went to see, um, I don't know to say the medical term in English. To see an operation that I took like pictures and then wrote a paper about it. Um, that was my dream. I want to say after I finished the army and I understood that it's a difficult road here to become a veterinarian, so I, I, I start being more pragmatic about what I want to do. But it's still like, uh, I would do either that or being a doctor.

Amit: Really? Wow.

Amos: Yeah, definitely. Uh, what would that kid think now? I was always a gamer, so the fact that I'm working with games, uh, eight-year-old me would be proud of myself, I hope. Um, not as athletic as the eight-year-old kid hoped for. Definitely not good enough in basketball.

Amit: Yeah.

Amos: Um, but yeah.

Amit: I wanted to be a, I think when I was eight or nine, an NHL player. Like I played ice ho-

Amos: NHL?

Amit: I played ice hockey until I was 18 in the Israeli national team.

Amos: Here?

Amit: Yeah, yeah. You have-

Amos: Seriously?

Amit: In the north, in Metula, you have a ice, uh-

Amos: Yeah. Makoz Canada.

Amit: Yeah. Uh, yeah, I didn't do it. But now I'm here with you. Let's do another one. It was a good one.

Amos: I took, I took my kids to an ice rink. It was an epic fail.

Amit: It's fun. It's fun.

Amos: Epic fail.

Amit: Yeah, yeah.

Amos: Um, what would you build if you started over today knowing everything you know now?

Amit: Ooh, this is interesting.

Amos: Tough question. Tough question, um, especially for me because I'm not an innovator. I am very good at improving examples I see outside. Like I will take, you know, 10% from here, 20% from here, 40% from here and, and the extra and would like mash it into something of my own. So building something from scratch, probably the most interesting thing to me would be an early adapter for like fantasy football analysis.

Amit: Wow.

Amos: Like I think I have friends that are doing it for 15 years. I'm probably doing it for seven years of fantasy, and you see like how analytics about it pro-

Amit: Really?

Amos: It's crazy.

Amit: Really? Wow.

Amos: And now with like, I'm pretty sure that like with Claude, I wanna, I wanna manage my season next year working with-

Amit: With Claude only?

Amos: With Claude.

Amit: The agent?

Amos: Also, there's the World Cup bit that-

Amit: Oh, man

Amos: My friends is doing it now, so-

Amit: The holiday, the fiesta

Amos: I wanna build a new, a new project. Uh, yeah, yeah, I told you before, this is a, this is a passion. Uh, podcaster, everything around Premier League-. everything around fantasy.

Amit: I love it. This is good. You know, you have a, I think Nordeus is the one. Did you play Football Manager when you were a kid? You know this game?

Amos: Yeah.

Amit: It's one of the, the best ever games that I ever played.

Amos: Not a lot. No, I always was a, a FIFA, a FIFA player.

Amit: It's, uh, has a like a circle. I- in the past, you didn't even have. I played, I think 2008 maybe was the first time the Football Manager. You had the like circles that are like-

Amos: Yeah

Amit: Hitting another circle that this is how you would see the gameplay. But yeah. Uh, as a last question, I know that, uh, you don't like those stuff of how do you view yourself. But-

Amos: Mm-hmm

Amit: From everything you know in the industry, and you're here for a long time, you're also one of the guys that knows, in my opinion, how to adapt AI the most efficient way and how to utilize it for, like, real impact on business. What do you think will be in the industry in the upcoming years, specifically mobile games?

Amos: This is undoubtfully like the pivotal moment in people's careers. I always give this analogy of there's a wave coming, it can drown you, or you can ride on it, and that's, that is being defined by how exploratory you are with AI. Um, and, and it circles back to what we, we talked about before. It's an enabler. It gives you the opportunity to learn whatever you want as fast as you have the time to invest, uh, to expand your experience, to be proactive, to try connect things, to try and offload some of the work that you're doing and to see if it's a better, doing a better job. But it's only based on your agency. Like, where do you want to take it? There's a limit of how much I will tell people, like, "I want you to optimize how you answer emails," whatnot. Like, they need to think about it from the pain that they feel in the day-to-day experience. That's from a personal standpoint. From-. uh, like, let's say, a, a visionary standpoint, I think that, um, by the way, social casino IAP, I think it's, it will be more tricky to, um, automa- like automatically manage because the, just the economies of the game, like there's a lot of touch points-

Amit: Yeah

Amos: Long touch points that it's not very easy to predict. So even if you want to build something like that, you need to invest so much in, in giving the amount of context. Again, if you look at it through a very sophisticated attri- attribution, um, uh, uh, glasses. But commerce, CPA, IAA, I think that it will be 90%, uh, autonomous, like in the next-

Amit: Really? Wow

Amos: In the next couple of years-. just because it's super predictable, and once something is very predictable, you already have loops to control content.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: You're, like you are doing it-

Amit: Mm-hmm

Amos: We are doing it. Like, it's there in, in three months, not in two years. So you got the content, uh, pieces covered. You now see MCPs, official MCPs of AppLovin, Unity, Facebook, more, and more, and more. So as long as, as they give you, you know, all of the connectors needed to operate, you'll invest six months in, in giving like building the right context model, and, and then it will take 90% of the work.

Amit: Do you think there will be a, a place for new games launch in the future? Let's go even three years from now. A new founder of a new gaming studio.

Amos: For sure.

Amit: I don't have the resources like a big company. Uh, do you think they will be able to, to scale?

Amos: Um, I'm sorry, I wanna say one more thing about-

Amit: Yeah, of course.

Amos: The previous question. I'm sorry. I think that-. how people should operate is exactly what, how we're trying to move in acquisition. Like, you won't need op. Like, in the past, when you wanted to grow in UA, you take more spend, you're a better operator. We don't need operators anymore. We need like analysts. We need people who think. We need people that understand how the attribution funnel-

Amit: Mm

Amos: Really work, like how to analyze that, how to experiment and, and like get to different levels. Uh, and to the second point, I think that definitely is much, much, much harder, uh, in one way to grow a new game. But as I said, the entry barrier in s- in terms of trying is significantly lower. Now, I can, I don't know, if by vibe coding or by art, it's much quicker for me to pivot or to test another concept, another game, so I can have many more shots on goal. Uh, but maybe the KPI threshold that you need to meet is higher.

Amit: Mm.

Amos: We see it with, with difficult, like higher difficulty in launching a new game just because it needs to be really top-notch. But I don't think that, uh, being in a big company gives you an advantage necessarily of launching a new top-notch concept. Um, so I think from an entertainment standpoint, we'll always have new games.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Amos: I don't think it's the luxury of only big companies. I think there are more services for UA financing these days.

Amit: Yeah.

Amos: I wanna say it's like a two-year, three-year trend.

Amit: Yeah, but-

Amos: Um-

Amit: Now, yeah, now it's booming. I see-

Amos: You had all the VCs.

Amit: I know personally-- Yeah, I know a lot now.

Amos: Yeah.

Amit: A lot of, uh, like it's the, you see less money poured from a VC point of view, so everyone is saying, you know, uh, gaming is getting dead, blah, blah, blah. But you see more company-- You see maybe it's very interesting to analyze that how much money is really poured into mobile games-

Amos: Mm-hmm

Amit: Putting aside VC, 'cause then you will-

Amos: Yeah

Amit: See all of the UA financing. You will see a lot of-

Amos: Yeah

Amit: Banks that are providing that, not only like special firms like, uh, PVX and et cetera.

Amos: Yeah.

Amit: But, uh-

Amos: You have governments.

Amit: You have governments now that are pouring a lot of money-

Amos: In Turkey, in South Malaysia, yeah

Amit: Interesting.

Amos: So I think that it's definitely here to stay. You see emerging markets, um, Turkey in the last three years.

Amit: Vietnam now.

Amos: Vietnam is growing really-

Amit: Fucking insane.

Amos: Korea for the last couple of years. So it, it will evolve, it will change. But, but, but it's here. Like I'm, I'm playing games for almost like thirty-five years. I will continue playing games for the next thirty-five years.

Amit: Really, uh, games is to play. What do you play now? Do you play something now?

Amos: Uh, I recently bought, uh, I lost my Nintendo Switch on the train, which was an-

Amit: Oh my God

Amos: Unfortunate, uh-

Amit: Really unfortunate

Amos: Accident. Yeah, but I, I treat myself to Switch 2.

Amit: Really?

Amos: Yeah. Which is amazing. I always play something. Uh, now I'm playing Cyberpunk on Switch.

Amit: Really?

Amos: Yeah, I just started. I never played it.

Amit: It's a cool game.

Amos: Uh, before that, I played Hades, which was great.

Amit: Oh my God, yes.

Amos: I played, uh, I love those, like, I love God of War, Spider-Man, like action RPG type of games.

Amit: I'm playing The Witcher now again. The Witcher 3 second time you need the-- oh my God.

Amos: I never played it.

Amit: Man, it's insane. It's like, uh. Oh my God.

Amos: I have, I have a shorter attention span now, so, like, when the world is too big for me, like-

Amit: It's one of the biggest world. This is the issue.

Amos: I get confused.

Amit: You have a lot of games now that the thing that they are most proud of is I have the biggest open world and explore, like exploration and path and etc-

Amos: Not for me.

Amit: But perfect. We have one last surprise that they will bring from the outside. Yes, the last one, and then we will wrap it up. But you must play The Witcher 3. It's like the side quest and the regular quest as well. It's like you're in a movie. You're literally in a movie.

Amos: What's that?

Amit: This is, uh, you playing Pac-Man with you.

Amos: Me playing Pac-Man? I was always-

Amit: With you. This is you.

Amos: I understand why when you look at me, you say I constantly eat things, but okay. Uh, I'm, I was always very bad at Pac-Man. Let's see.

Amit: This is your face in the Pac-

Amos: Yeah.

Amit: Yeah, yeah, of course.

Amos: Try and-

Amit: This is the system. AI generated. AI generated. It's pretty hard to win, I can tell you from, uh-

Amos: No, I'm, I'm trying to start.

Amit: Ai.

Amos: Okay, okay.

Amit: Okay, let's go.

Amos: Now I have it. Can you send, like, the APK?

Amit: You can upload it to one of your games as a playable ad.

Amos: As a, as a meta.

Amit: Let's see. What is the CPI? The CTL probably will be very high. The CPI will be like-

Amos: No, I'll put, uh, another per-- another person face. It will-

Amit: Maybe it will work better.

Amos: I'm very bad at Pac-Man. Two lives left.

Amit: It's very hard. It's very hard.

Amos: What's your score?

Amit: I'm, uh, I'm pretty bad with these type of games. All of them. These also we try to play here, uh, Tekken. I'm not good at those stuff. I don't know why, but it's not my-

Amos: I told you I was, uh. My brother was more extreme. I remember playing, him playing South Park Rally. It was a really good game.

Amit: Wow.

Amos: And like losing a race and bashing his hand on the computer. So I'm a, a less crazy version of that. But I, I, I broke some controllers in my life losing, uh, in FIFA. It's a great game. Yeah, like in life, I'm eating everything.

Amit: What is your score now?

Amos: Um, sixteen hundred.

Amit: Oh my God. How long it will take? Do you know?

Amos: No, I have one life left.

Amit: Oh my God. That's it.

Amos: That's it.

Amit: That's it.

Amos: Sixteen ninety. My birthday.

Amit: Wow. It's yafa. So, Amos, uh, it was a real pleasure. As usually, just fun for me to speak with you and to hear your thoughts. Thank you very much. I'm sure everyone will enjoy this. Everything here about since the start, about management, leadership, uh, is this trends of finding people with more, um, hunger, eagerness, uh, cur-curiosity and stuff instead of experience, which it is a trend that I see with a lot of company, not only in games, but also in like more regular tech or cyber in the industry here. Um, you know, attribution and creatives is your-- it's always amazing for me to hear and in general management and talent density and how do you find and how do you nurture them? Because I do think that today with, you know, everyone's saying with AI, but you expect a very, uh, the exponential growth. You want it very, very, very fast. People are not patient enough with other people and with product as well. And sometimes this patient is needed because you can gain like the real fruits of it. So it's something that I'm also taking personally to, to my company. So as usual, it was amazing. Thank you very much.

Amos: Thanks a lot.